and at this moment he was the richest man in russia, but russia had just experienced its default and devaluations. so he was in kind of a bad mood. and this is what he said to me about oligarchs and everybody else. if a man is not an oligarch, something is not right with him. everyone had the same starting conditions, everyone could have done it. and he really meant it, you know? it was very, very heartfelt. and he was particularly -- he was kind of criticizing himself in this because he had lost a couple of hundred million dollars because he had stupidly entrusted a nonoligarch, there therefore, not a true man, with running his bank, and this nonoligarch -- by definition, not a smart guy -- had the loss of a few hundred million bucks. but that is, you know, there's a little bit of that thinking in a lot of these guys, and it's interesting because i came across, i think there are very strong parallels, i won't have time to talk about all of them. but in my book i talk about the parallels of industrial revolution. and there's a line from andrew carnegie which is very, very similar. so